I purchased Star Wars: The Clone Wars seasons one and two on blu-ray disk and started watching them over the weekend. Done by Cartoon Network, these are quite simply, incredible. I mean, the dialogue could be a little better and is pretty much dumb-downed for a "young adult" audience but it's more than made up by the amount of detail and animation that is shown on the screen.
Example, I can see reflections on chrome lightsabers that adjust with body movement! In one battle, Luminara Undulee (one of the Jedi Masters and probably my favorite amongst the minor characters) got burned by a steam vent while in a duel with Asagi Ventress (she's the Sith apprentice to Count Dooku) and I could see that one of her eyes was a little red and inflamed. I thought to myself...wow...they really put detail into this. I mean, even on the clone troopers you can see different scarring and dirt on the armor and helmets.
So yeah, it got me thinking about Episode III: Revenge of the Sith--it's the movie that brought everything full circle in the Star Wars universe and gave us Luke and Leia, showed us how Yoda and Obi-Wan learned how to become force ghosts etc. It also caused me to contemplate the burning questions which I present to you, my fellow nerds of the blogosphere.
Was Mace Windu more powerful than Yoda?
Here's all that I know from watching the movies.
1. Palpatine threw Force lightning at Yoda during the initial part of their fight, whilst doing his typical villain monologue. Now. This should've given enough time for Yoda to prepare. Yoda was nailed by the lightning and sent flying across the room, and was knocked temporarily unconscious.
2. Yoda got up and "Force-pushed" Palpatine across the room, where he flipped over his desk. Palpatine got RIGHT BACK up. I believe his endurance is greater than Yoda. Their both old men, though.
3. Palpatine (remember, he said in the movie "all who gain power are afraid to lose it"
- he didn't know if he could take Yoda. So what did he do? He tried to run. Yoda was quicker to the door and confronted him. Realizing he couldn't escape - he STOOD and FOUGHT. Notice he did NOT try to escape after that.
4. Palpatine HELD OFF YODA. Yoda went on the offensive. He was looking to KILL Palpatine - NOT vice versa. Well, Palps was on the defensive. Yoda was on the offensive. YODA was the one looking to cut Palpatine. And he didn't succeed.
5. So the fight went into the Senate Chamber. Palpatine switched to the offensive. He was chucking Senate pods left and right at Yoda. Yoda's pretty agile - and dodged them all. Then he threw one back - but had a difficult time doing so. Palpatine was laughing - notice this. At the time, he wasn't taking Yoda seriously. His mistake. Palpatine lept out of the way just as the pod closed in on him.
2. Yoda got up and "Force-pushed" Palpatine across the room, where he flipped over his desk. Palpatine got RIGHT BACK up. I believe his endurance is greater than Yoda. Their both old men, though.
3. Palpatine (remember, he said in the movie "all who gain power are afraid to lose it"
- he didn't know if he could take Yoda. So what did he do? He tried to run. Yoda was quicker to the door and confronted him. Realizing he couldn't escape - he STOOD and FOUGHT. Notice he did NOT try to escape after that.4. Palpatine HELD OFF YODA. Yoda went on the offensive. He was looking to KILL Palpatine - NOT vice versa. Well, Palps was on the defensive. Yoda was on the offensive. YODA was the one looking to cut Palpatine. And he didn't succeed.
5. So the fight went into the Senate Chamber. Palpatine switched to the offensive. He was chucking Senate pods left and right at Yoda. Yoda's pretty agile - and dodged them all. Then he threw one back - but had a difficult time doing so. Palpatine was laughing - notice this. At the time, he wasn't taking Yoda seriously. His mistake. Palpatine lept out of the way just as the pod closed in on him.
6. Yoda pursued Palpatine and closed in on him - but Palpatine also went on the offensive and fired Force lightning. They were both closing on each other. Yoda was holding Palpatine's lightning at bay - and Palpatine was continuing to hurl it - and both were struggling to keep these feats up. Yoda threw the lightning back at Palpatine who flipped over the Senate pod. Yoda is obviously much smaller than Palpatine - and went flying in return.
Now.
Previously in a battle with Mace Windu, Palpatine killed three Jedi Masters in three seconds. This is an impressive feat that I'm reminding you of before you come to a decision. Do remember that even the book and EU material states these three - such as Kit Fisto - to be excellent duelists and worthy of their title as Jedi Masters. So. Basically - he took down THREE Jedi Masters - the equivelant to a Sith Lord - and cut them down in three seconds. By himself.
Maul couldn't do this. Dooku couldn't do this. And Anakin couldn't do this.
I don't have proof that Palpatine orchestrated the fight between him and Mace. All I know is, Palpatine's manipulations and skills at orchestration are far greater than Yoda or Mace could ever dream of. So maybe he purposely lost to Mace. Or maybe he didn't.
Now.
Previously in a battle with Mace Windu, Palpatine killed three Jedi Masters in three seconds. This is an impressive feat that I'm reminding you of before you come to a decision. Do remember that even the book and EU material states these three - such as Kit Fisto - to be excellent duelists and worthy of their title as Jedi Masters. So. Basically - he took down THREE Jedi Masters - the equivelant to a Sith Lord - and cut them down in three seconds. By himself.
Maul couldn't do this. Dooku couldn't do this. And Anakin couldn't do this.
I don't have proof that Palpatine orchestrated the fight between him and Mace. All I know is, Palpatine's manipulations and skills at orchestration are far greater than Yoda or Mace could ever dream of. So maybe he purposely lost to Mace. Or maybe he didn't.
But if he didn't, Mace Windu beat Palpatine and had him on the ground and withstood a full volley of force lightning by himself. The only reason Mace Windu lost was because Anakin walked in and backstabbed him.
So what do you guys think? Is Mace Windu more powerful than Yoda?
I don't know. I just think having Yoda fight was a terrible idea. He was a teacher, not a fighter. The Windu duel was kind of lame once it got to the emperor using the force lightning and it burning his face. That was so contrived. I mean the regular Star Wars movies take place what 25 years later so we didn't need an explanation for why the emperor looks older--he was older! And running a whole galaxy would take a lot out of you; have you ever seen before and after pictures of presidents? You can see it right now with Obama; his hair is going gray from all the stress. So there was a simple explanation for all the dorky fanboys who needed one. Far less contrived.
ReplyDeleteAnd I would have liked to see Anakin have more of a fight with Windu--and more of a fight with Jedi besides Obi-Wan, which itself wasn't even that good. The end of it was so disappointing. He tries to jump and gets his legs cut off? Really? That's how it ends? Lame. I had imagined much better scenarios. I'm just saying.
I played the "Clone Wars lightsaber duels" game for the Wii recently. It was about as disappointing as the movies. Having to use the "nunchuck" to move around meant you couldn't really use the remote like a lightsaber. Though the Jedi hunter droid was pretty sweet. I kicked Windu's ass with it, but for some reason they didn't have Yoda in the game.
This is the kind of serious discussion that draws me in! :-) I love Mace, and he definitely comes off as slightly more badass than Yoda in the films and cartoon. However, I have to side with RM on this one. Yoda was a teacher that could hold his own in a fight. Mace was a fighter who could teach.
ReplyDeleteAt least that's the way I choose to view it. Good stuff!
EJ
According to the movie lore, Yoda is the best. Period. In Attack of the Clones, it's Yoda's skill with a lightsaber that Obi-Wan compares Anaking to, not Mace. Palpatine went down against Mace on purpose. He needed Anakin to take that step over the line, to come to his defense, so he begged and pleaded so that Anakin could see that Mace was about to strike down a "helpless" victim, something that Anakin had an issue with after he did the same to Dooku. The Sith manipulate; it's just what they do.
ReplyDeleteI love Mace but the sith are trickster as fuck. Palpatine not only drew young Anakin in but also caused the orchestration of the fall of the Jedi through the death of Windu. Mr. Leon has some good points in these comments.
DeleteMike, great points you bring up. I love this topic. :) I agree with Andrew though that the loss was more of a lure to seduce Anakin. I know that as EJ says Yoda is purportedly the best. I'm not sure because he DID use his skills to teach more than to fight... makes me think of the Michael Jackson song "The Girl is Mine" where Paul McCartney says "I'm a lover, not a fighter" which is kinda the attitude Yoda had. He was just so Buddhist and pacifist when it came to fighting. Who knows if or how much he was holding back.
ReplyDeletep.s., in point 2, you should have said "They're both old men." rather than Their both old men."
;)
Oh, and I actually have to disagree about them both being old. Palpatine is, probably, 50ish, and, by today's standards, that's not old. In the Old Republic, a civilization at the height of technology, I'm sure 50 is hardly old. Yoda, on the other hand, is over 900.
ReplyDeleteI, also, think that Palpatine allowed the withering effect to happen to gain sympathy in the senate. He did make a point of it, after.
I don't see any discrepancy in Yoda being a teacher/pacifist and being the best fighter, either. We see it in martial arts movies all the time. The aged teacher that never fights but, then, suddenly, kicks everyone's butts. It goes with the idea of not having to fight because you can.
http://strangepegs.blogspot.com/
I don't understand what you mean. There are only three star wars films and nobody called Mace appears in any of them. And that's that.
ReplyDeleteNow let's not speak of it again.
I don't know much about Star Wars, so I can't really say . . . but I did want to stop by and thank you for commenting on my blog!
ReplyDeleteThank you everyone for bringing up such interesting points.
ReplyDeleteWhile I appreciate the time you've put into these observations, but I can't take much stock in the prequels. Between stilted language, plot holes, unnecessary characters, and....
ReplyDeletewho the heck makes a life on a lava planet that has a self destruct button?
And did Anakin really make a believable transition from good to bad?
Don't get me started.
The newest movies are abominations. They give the originals plot holes they never had.
ReplyDeleteHere's my two cents: nobody was more powerful than Yoda! :-)
ReplyDeleteOh...have you stirred up a Star Wars discussion in my house. I don't think the topic will be changed for hours. It has been decided that Yoda the master in which all others are measured.
ReplyDeleteMy two smallest boys live for the friday night cartoons. Of course, we record and watch on Saturday morning. They LOVE them. As for yoda, he's my fave, but my boys might argue.
ReplyDeleteWow. I was going to comment but looks like all my ideas were taken already. I think I heard an interview years ago that Mace was supposed to be second to Yoda on the ass kickery scale of Jedi warriors.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhy does it matter?
ReplyDeletem not sure because he DID use his skills to teach more than to fight... makes me think of the Michael Jackson song "The Girl is Mine" where Paul McCartney says "I'm a lover, not a fighter" which is kinda the attitude Yoda had. He was just so Buddhist and pacifist when it came to fighting.
That was in the OT. Yoda had no problem being the aggressor in AOTC and ROTS.
Nothing from the first three episodes counts.
ReplyDeleteApparently nobody was paying attention to the movies cause everyone ran from yoda count dooku and sidious he countered the electricity with his bare hands no jedi did that in any movie or cartoon and windu did beat sidious they were fighting seriously he used his electricity that's pretty serious if you ask me windu kick him and disarmed him windu was pretty bad ass and the fight could've been better if anakin and sidious would've fought windu that would've been cool maybe the best battle of all and it was stupid that obi wan was able to keep up with anakin when he couldn't even last 2 minutes against dooku and anakin beat him with ease so yoda was the most powerful of all jedi or sith
ReplyDeleteApparently nobody was paying attention to the movies or cartoon everyone who fought yoda ran from him he overpowered both sidious and dooku when they clashed with the lightsabers or clashed with electricity and yoda countered sidious with his bare hands when sidious saw both of these things he ran and started throwing shit at him like a bitch so you tell me who was more powerful like yoda said to him if so powerful you are why run those were his exact words sidious didn't want to fight yoda he fought windu and wasn't afraid of him even tho windu did win sidious didn't allow him to win windu kick and disarmed him and countered his electricity and the reason why yoda didn't beat him fast cause sidious had room to run unlike his battle with windu so yoda was the most powerful of all jedi or sith none wanted to face yoda so it's obvious he was badass for being like 3 feet tall you have to respect him
ReplyDeleteInteresting points, Frank. Thanks for visiting.
ReplyDeleteAlright fellow fans, here's my little piece on Mace and Yoda in comparison to one another.
ReplyDeleteYoda supposedly understood how to use all 7 of the main lightsaber forms, but shows mastery over Ataru with his spins and flips to increase his ability to fight despite his small size. Numerous times he also proves that he has a high level of control over the force, being able to absorb and redirect force lightning with his bare hands (a feat rarely seen in even the most powerful jedi, the only other one that comes to mind is from the EU, and exceptionally powerful in his own right). In his fight with Palpatine, he seems to struggle seeing as the two combatants are fighting with all their powers, and neither one is anything short of amazing.
Mace on the other hand, shows not nearly the same level of force control, but makes up for it by being well regarded as the strongest lightsaber combatant in the council (short of Yoda perhaps). He also understands the basics of most of the forms, but uses his own varient of the 7th, called Vappad (spelling subject to error) which uses his inner darkness to be able to strike almost from every angle at once. Only two ever learned the form, but only he could master it. In HIS duel with the soon to be Emperor, he was more than a match for the sith lord's saber skills on a single 1x1 basis.
BOTH were Grand Jedi Masters, the highest rank. Nothing short of each other's equals if they decided to fight, though no doubt Yoda would hold back (seeing as he has never been one to fight except when need be). So in the end, my thoughts are that Yoda is stronger in the force, Mace is a stronger lightsaber combatant, but Yoda's saber skills WITH his force powers make him overall stronger.
@Mitchell: Outstanding analysis. Have you heard that Samuel L. Jackson wants to be in the new Star Wars films? He says, "Mace didn't technically die. He fell out the window with both hands cut off. But he's not technically dead!"
ReplyDeleteI started to research Vappad style. The idea of different lightsaber fighting techniques never occurred to me. Supposedly, one of my favorite Jedi Masters, Luminara Undulee, is incredible with the lightsaber too.
@ Micheal
ReplyDeleteI have not heard about Mr. Jackson's desires, though I doubt that Mace could've survived long if he survived his fall at all. Yes he was not outright killed, but he also fell from an incredibly high tower built on a planet that is esentially a city built on a city, ontop of yet another city, and so on for miles and miles until you actually reach the planet itself. Assuming he survived the fall, he would've suffered extreme pain, probably broken almost every bone in his body, and without his hands it would've been unlikely that he would've been able to push himself back up to his feet even if he had his bones left.
And your compliment is most appreciated. ^.^ Most people tell me that I'm way too into this kind of stuff if I can give essays on it. And in case you or anyone else needs a reminder:
the 7 lightsaber forms are
Shii-Cho - form one - the most basic and balanced form trademarked by wide sweeping motions. Famous practitioner is Kit Fisto.
Mashiki - Form two - think like a fencer, the smallest movements possible and mostly for attacks. Famous practitioner would be Count Dooku (I am not good at spelling?)
Soresu - form three - Almost exclusively defensive technique trademarked by small movements to block blows with minimal effort. Famous practitioner is Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Shien / Djiem-So - Form four - Interestingly enough there are the two varients of this form. The former, Shien, is focused on counteracting blasters, and the second is more suited for lightsabers. Both are effective at the other's job, but slightly different, uses the opponent's strikes to bounce back into an attack. Our beloved Anakin and Luke Skywalker both used the Djiem-So varient.
Ataru - form five - The acrobatic form most noticed for the inclusion of force jumps and spins as often as saber strokes. Yoda preferred this form.
Nimien - Form six - Considered to be the diplomat's form, Nimian is essentially what the owner makes of it. When it's not really any of the traditional forms, it kinda belongs in this category, a lot of mix matched styles, trying to balance the form (unlike how the others have their weaknesses). I can't think of any major practitioners, but the form's generalization means pretty much everyone could fit in here at some point.
Joyo / Vappad - Form seven - Again, a form with two varients. Joyo is a highly aggressive form, on the move, the offensive, eyes on the prize, whatever phrase you want. Most Sith would use this form, and if im not mistaken, when Qui Gon and Maul first fight on Tatooine, the sith lord uses a style similar to this one in theory.
Now Vappad is the same, using the darkness inside to unleash total destructive powers, but focus and not like a sith's rampaging emotions. Using the darkness without being part of it. Mace created the form, and tought it to one other, who was corrupted by his darkness. Mace was the only one to ever master the form, to the point of becoming a flurry of attacks from every angle, even unarmed.
I know that was off topic, but it was good to get feedback on my analysis, I thought I would put as much of your research needs in one spot. Last tidbit of information you might like: Aside from the varients on the lightsaber itself, the only interesting form of actual combat seen in the movies is Jar'Kai, or fighting with two lightsabers at once. Anakin uses this style in the second movie, Grevious used an altered version (seeing as he had four arms), and numerous jedi throughout the original and expanded universe utilized Jar'Kai at one point or another (Luke, Obi-Wan, etc.) that we haven't seen.
I hope that helps you somewhat,and I'm sorry for rambling and being off topic. It happens when I start talking about things. ^^"
Darth mal survives his fall in (the comic or book I don't remember which) so it isn't unprecedented if mace does end up having survived his fall
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