tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post6226530013704698522..comments2024-03-22T12:11:58.453-06:00Comments on Michael Offutt: How clean is the language in your novel?Michael Offutt, Phantom Readerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557969104886174930noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-28079655269544675572011-12-06T12:54:04.127-07:002011-12-06T12:54:04.127-07:00I want to talk about this idea of language (or sex...I want to talk about this idea of language (or sex or violence) being gratuitous.<br /><br />Does a decent writer ever use language that doesn't have a reason, at least to that writer? Is a swear ever going to be gratuitous to that writer? Does a writer ever go, "Gee, there's not enough gratuity in this story; I'd better beef up some swears"? Even the most "unnecessary" nudie shot in an 80's action flick (think something like Highlander) is easily explained by "They're having sex. They should be naked."<br /><br />Just because you as a reader might think the language (or the scene) should be different doesn't make it wrong. I want to change the majority of the writing in Twilight to make it better, but that doesn't mean that what's there doesn't work. It's what the writer wanted, and it's make her a bazillion dollars. 'nuff said.Brent Wescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08313269993916969201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-26931796879146774112011-12-05T18:07:17.890-07:002011-12-05T18:07:17.890-07:00dude. cannot stop thinking about that story. Thank...dude. cannot stop thinking about that story. Thank you for introducing me to it.Sarah Ahiershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02795455714801965956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-43580564108973965482011-12-05T17:52:00.142-07:002011-12-05T17:52:00.142-07:00ok, just read the short story. I've read Fox W...ok, just read the short story. I've read Fox Woman by Kij Johnson as well. Anyway, loved the short story. Totally deserving of the award, imop. If people can't see the reason behind the language in the story then there's probably not much hope for them.Sarah Ahiershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02795455714801965956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-58548368571168202192011-12-05T17:37:04.805-07:002011-12-05T17:37:04.805-07:00there's sex and swearing in almost all my nove...there's sex and swearing in almost all my novels. One doesn't have sex, but that was because it wouldn't have made sense in relation to the plot.<br />bring on the sex and swears, i say!Sarah Ahiershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02795455714801965956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-22896772668949414322011-12-02T08:03:13.222-07:002011-12-02T08:03:13.222-07:00I've noticed this trend in children and YA boo...I've noticed this trend in children and YA books in dystopian or alternate worlds to have A LOT of swearing - just not of curse words that we typically use! For example, Leviathan by Scott Westerfield basically uses barking for the f bomb and clart for sh*t. So obviously there are a ton of beats, even in children and YA books, where a curse word is necessary - so what are authors like me supposed to do when our world doesn't warrant anything other than the curse words we use everyday?<br /><br />Historically, my works have been clean. But at the moment I'm writing about a lot of teenagers who have had a *VERY* rough time. It's actually incredibly dishonest for them NOT to swear like a sailor. I recently expressed surprise to my family that my characters were swearing so much, and their response was, "Why does that surprise you? You swear ALL THE TIME." So aside from it being story-appropriate, I think it's just part of my voice? <br /><br />I think problems arise when writers choose to look down their noses at people for making a choice. It's fine to have a clean book! And to want to write clean books! It doesn't mean you're a prude. But it should also be okay for me to write curse words, and not have people assume that I'm doing it for shock value! Because I'm not. <br /><br />And I find the whole thing kind of funny and hypocritical, because tons of people are murdered in my story, too, yet I doubt people are going to say I was doing *that* for shock value? And even in Leviathan, which I'm enjoying, there's a scene where the female lead guns down a bunch of soldiers with a machine gun! And she never thinks of it again - it's immediately on to crushing over the male lead! <br /><br />And it's just bizarre to me, really bizarre, that you can have children gun down people but God forbid they say shit or fuck all every once in a while. <br /><br />Sorry for posting a thesis on your blog.Annalise Greenhttp://annalisegreen.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-34074299661919455732011-12-01T21:25:24.216-07:002011-12-01T21:25:24.216-07:00Oh my god! I just wrote a long response to this bu...Oh my god! I just wrote a long response to this but I wasn't logged on and when I hit "publish" it just took me to a dumb screen offering me a blog instead of telling me I wasn't logged on! Argh! Blogger, you... *shakes fist at screen threateningly* Too late to read the story or rewrite my comment now. Maybe I can redo it this weekend. Cheers!Danettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15043881305977386629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-44183960145769148932011-11-30T12:44:01.694-07:002011-11-30T12:44:01.694-07:00I'm a YA author and I've kept my books cle...I'm a YA author and I've kept my books clean. I know a lot of YA authors who throw in language just for the shock value.<br /><br />So the woman won a Nebula - big deal. Prize winning books tend to fall into the same category as Oscar winning movies - obscurity. One literary snob's opinion of a book won't matter if it doesn't sell.<br /><br />And I know an author whose book won an Ippy a few years ago - it was stocked in every Barnes & Noble across America. Know how many copies it sold as an Ippy winner? SIX! Bet her would've traded that stupid Ippy award for some book sales.L. Diane Wolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06425864276166334896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-2984210547055553182011-11-29T21:34:30.059-07:002011-11-29T21:34:30.059-07:00After watching "This Film is Not Yet Rated&qu...After watching "This Film is Not Yet Rated", I breathed a sigh of relief that books are not subjected to such review. Seriously. Let's all take a moment to be thankful for that.<br /><br />I've spent a lot of time thinking about sex. Oh, and also about sexy stuff in my novels. :-)<br /><br />Here's the thing about sex in YA novels: you can have it in there, so long as it doesn't FEEL sexy to the reader. I had some kissing type scenes that my beta readers felt were erotic (who knew what a hot writer I could be?!) so those were the ones I toned down. Because YA is a pretty broad age range, I chose to write my own content warning for the first page of my book. Describing the content is totally voluntary, and I felt I could do it in a way that didn't spoil the book or make me feel tawdry, so I did it.<br /><br />I've seen studies that swear words cause changes in your brainwaves in a way that regular words do not. Swear words are not regular words--it's science! Weird, huh?Dalya Moonhttp://dalyamoon.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-84655168058027179562011-11-29T21:29:52.246-07:002011-11-29T21:29:52.246-07:00To all the h8ters out there all I gotta say is...
...To all the h8ters out there all I gotta say is...<br /><br />The woman won a NEBULA.<br /><br />Just one word.<br /><br />NEBULA.<br /><br />'nuff said.Michael Offutt, Phantom Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10557969104886174930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-35001421684302257512011-11-29T21:21:35.216-07:002011-11-29T21:21:35.216-07:00" If the writing demands the use of it" ..." If the writing demands the use of it" says it all.<br /><br />Of course the author must be comfortable writing the subject matter; that said, don't write a sexy novel if you don't feel comfortable using the appropriate terms. Culture doesn't necessarily always mean "foreign setting" either.<br /><br />My women's fiction trilogy explores the "culture" of substance abuse and domestic violence. I was actually accused of downplaying the sex, violence, and more importantly socially unacceptable language in the novel. I just smiled :)<br /><br />I don't believe an author should use the terms wantonly to promote a rating that would appeal to "adults"; but I also don't believe in scrimping on the terms if the subject matter calls for it.<br /><br />Gotta let the story flow in its own way . .<br /><br />........dholedolorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08715849844092553699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-14538450140324297782011-11-29T21:02:13.955-07:002011-11-29T21:02:13.955-07:00My YA books are clean. My adult fantasy has its ow...My YA books are clean. My adult fantasy has its own type of swearing. Not every day type words we use, more story appropriate. Sex is definitely in my upcoming adult fantasy novel. I didn't set out to write a book with sex in it, but that's what happened. It fit the plot. I think sex and swearing in books for no reason is obnoxious. I'm not a huge fan of reading books with a TON of either. Sprinkled in and appropriate to the plot is what I prefer.Ciarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15628488753277495111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-49186808737969527972011-11-29T20:52:48.589-07:002011-11-29T20:52:48.589-07:00ok... i went to see what the fuss is about, and go...ok... i went to see what the fuss is about, and got turned off to the point i did not read more than the intro, then skimmed a few lines to see if my first reaction was correct, it was... meh... <br /><br />NOT because of the so-called 'fucking' that seemed like it went on forever, but cuz of the implausibility of the situation: aliens DO NOT FUCK, whether male or female, outside of their own species... especially if said aliens are not remotely hominid... regardless of what your hentai types project in their 'tales'... that's fantastical, mostly human male, dreaming that aliens would even know how or want to, much less fornicate for hours with one, or more, species 'alien' to themselves...<br /><br />none of the words bother me, the concept does... <br /><br />whether she's a 'good' writer or not [awards mean squat to me] i'll never know, since this killed any interest i may have had in her stuff....laughingwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08873675614347328116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-13548894140523378922011-11-29T20:06:22.069-07:002011-11-29T20:06:22.069-07:00I think you write what's appropriate to the st...I think you write what's appropriate to the story. I'm not a big fan of profanity in general and books by authors like Joe Abercrombie wear me out fast, but I still think that there are going to be times when profanity just fits the scene.SQThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04251030404220909306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-83241626287629327842011-11-29T19:50:51.456-07:002011-11-29T19:50:51.456-07:00yes I read the story but didn't much care for ...yes I read the story but didn't much care for it and not because of the sex and swear words. More because it didn't elicit anything more than 'hmm, ok.' <br /><br />I think everyone needs to decide for themselves what their story needs, be it the f-word, sex, violence, or none of the above.mshatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06308916014310536449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-86324800744740367692011-11-29T19:33:19.726-07:002011-11-29T19:33:19.726-07:00while i agree with what you say about writing, mik...while i agree with what you say about writing, mike, i take strong objection/offense whenever anyone refers to people as THAT... people must be referred to as WHO... and i don't give a damn how many millions make that mistake, people will ALWAYS be WHO, never THAT!<br /><br />g'luck on those awards, btw :)laughingwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08873675614347328116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-86885856381745582012011-11-29T17:10:41.255-07:002011-11-29T17:10:41.255-07:00I think the story trumps everything. Period. I was...I think the story trumps everything. Period. I was watching some movie with my wife once, and the main character, a womanizing, violent, drug using, trust fund punk was really showing hit rebillious side when, in a very dramatic moment, with lots of music, he says, "screw you."<br /><br />I turned to my wife and said, "you know we're watching a religious movie?" She disagreed at first, but yeah, we were. The point? When a character should be doing something and they don't, it feels like I'm being preached at.Rusty Carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09887821877521181811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-24720415469007704192011-11-29T16:02:07.090-07:002011-11-29T16:02:07.090-07:00I read the story and even if the swearing fit, I d...I read the story and even if the swearing fit, I didn't like it. I often hear swearing at home and still don't like it. I never will.<br /><br />Swearing isn't the only bad thing about that story. Face it, it was alien porno meant for shock value. <br /><br />A nebula isn't worth changing what I learned of more worth growing up. Could this writer have written a Nebula worthy story that didn't include the language? She'd have had to change the subject. What about the nebulas of other years? Did those authors manage a winning story without raw language and porn? I'd check that out before assuming this is the best way to get a Nebula.<br /><br />I had the bully in my MG book start to say "as-" and the 7th grade class here in Florida, not Utah, shot that down, as well as the MC saying "darn". That changes by high school for some, but not all. I have no idea of the percentages. You'll just have to decide which group you want to please.Sher A. Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03067955594103356768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-48448949113579385652011-11-29T15:57:23.410-07:002011-11-29T15:57:23.410-07:00Swearing in books doesn't bother me unless it ...Swearing in books doesn't bother me unless it excessive then it can sound rediculous. I know I haven't used much in my own stories yet, but who knows what I will do ;)<br /><br />I would like to read that story if I ever get the time.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07922596724107742478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-18601837422607242632011-11-29T15:13:10.114-07:002011-11-29T15:13:10.114-07:00I agree with E.J. Wesley.
As for what my family w...I agree with E.J. Wesley.<br /><br />As for what my family would think...My father used to take me to the library when I was a tween. The librarian would recommend books for me to read. She always asked if it was okay for the books to have swearing in them. His response was always the same: "She hears it at home."<br /><br />Not much shocks my family. (You've read my sis-in-law's blog, so you know what I'm talking about.)Liz A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16531953467834426316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-43290813374568013632011-11-29T13:58:53.620-07:002011-11-29T13:58:53.620-07:00Real people swear, dammit...see. Just find yourse...Real people swear, dammit...see. Just find yourself stuck behind peak hour traffic. I do use the occasional profanity in my writing. And sex...well yeah. How could I possibly have a hero and heroine and not expect them to get it on.<br /><br />Anyway, have a great day. :)Laila Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430076999393883312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-41341955017585079342011-11-29T12:59:09.587-07:002011-11-29T12:59:09.587-07:00Here, here! *pounds agreement on desk* If the swe...Here, here! *pounds agreement on desk* If the swearing and sex fits, then I'm all for it.Christine Rainshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08263694662585963900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-90558782821377521312011-11-29T12:48:47.715-07:002011-11-29T12:48:47.715-07:00Being worried about what my family would think of ...Being worried about what my family would think of what I write would mean that my family would have to be reading it. Like that will happen. I mean, my brother has never read an entire book his entire life. He did read about half of Huck Finn when he was in high school, but that's the extent of his reading experience. Likewise, my dad has never read any books either.<br />>shrug<<br />However, when I was in about 4th grade, my dad did throw away a couple of brand new books I'd just gotten because they "had magic" in them.<br />He knew that because one of them had a dragon on the cover and the other was based on Greek mythology.<br /><br />I think I've strayed from the point...Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-9585031262966468672011-11-29T12:16:59.060-07:002011-11-29T12:16:59.060-07:00I'm right with you, Michael. Swear words aren&...I'm right with you, Michael. Swear words aren't artificial constructs. They are words that have histories and etymologies that legitimize them. Writers who intentionally exclude parts of their language do themselves and their readers a disservice.<br /><br />This is especially true when writing about young adults. I work with teens. They swear A LOT. We're talking filthy pirate talk here. So if you really want to be true to their voices, you have to be willing to listen to what they have to say and how they go about saying it.<br /><br />I also think that being hyper-critical about swearing may point to a narrow world view. Depending on the reader or listener, words transmit different meanings. For example, in New Zealand, Australia, and Britain, young men use the "c-word" to refer to each other with a positive connotation, much like how the word "mate" is used. I believe it may be short for "countryman." <br /><br />Basically what I'm saying is that this issue is much more about what individual readers can tolerate than what the writer should or should not put on the page. If you don't like it, don't read it. But other people out there might not think like you do.REINHARDT!https://www.blogger.com/profile/01809613551100700183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-52564318609129012882011-11-29T11:50:11.962-07:002011-11-29T11:50:11.962-07:00I'm all for it if it fits the character and th...I'm all for it if it fits the character and the scene in the novel. If it doesn't, leave it out. It's a matter of judgement on the writer's part. Also, I can't stand prudish, self-righteous people who like to tell others how they must behave.Luanne G. Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15762881276976395955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-11466154850733681122011-11-29T11:42:32.564-07:002011-11-29T11:42:32.564-07:00I've totally read stories where language or se...I've totally read stories where language or sex has just been thrown in... where as a reader, I feel disconnected and it's obvious it's not necessary... but yeah, you've hit it, Michael... it's taking a good hard look and knowing the why. Sometimes, it is a necessary part of the story.Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15747144518868320969noreply@blogger.com