tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post4085134650651995328..comments2024-03-22T12:11:58.453-06:00Comments on Michael Offutt: The Secret is the McDonald's CheeseburgerMichael Offutt, Phantom Readerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557969104886174930noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-12324482931396252192011-09-18T11:15:21.725-06:002011-09-18T11:15:21.725-06:00You forgot trolls.
I have to agree with most of ...You forgot trolls. <br /><br />I have to agree with most of the post. I haven't read much YA, but to me they all sound like Twilight rip-offs with substituted magical/mythical creatures. <br /><br />I don't plan to ever query my writing, but I am tempted to start writing on this formula. Why? Because it gets you readers, fast. It sells. That's why agents want it. Take Amanda Hocking, for example. She sold tons of copies self-publishing on Amazon. While I haven't read any of her writing, and I might be wrong, but her books sound pretty formulaic to me. And it weren't agents or editors that chose her writing, but readers. I believe the problem today is not in agents and publishers, but in readers, whose standards have sunk to the levels of Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber, and who are celebrating mediocrity as the new masterpieces. Maybe kids these days just don't know any better.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08774347493321711881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-10571639497505118022011-09-15T00:11:21.936-06:002011-09-15T00:11:21.936-06:00Thanks for sharing this Michael...and thanks to ev...Thanks for sharing this Michael...and thanks to everyone who commented...I learned a lot. I'm just a newbie writer and it is good to learn about the big, bad world out there. :)<br /><br />-------------<br /><br />Join me at the <a href="http://amloki.blogspot.com/p/sign-up-for-rule-of-three-blogfest.html" rel="nofollow">Rule of Three Writers' Blogfest!</a>Damyanti Biswashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12730222708740037475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-32411037041731733672011-09-14T21:47:11.449-06:002011-09-14T21:47:11.449-06:00@Rusty: Speaking of bands, if you look at U2, they...@Rusty: Speaking of bands, if you look at U2, they started out with a pretty original sound, but they wanted a number 1 song, and they worked hard to get it. Once they passed through Rattle and Hum, Bono said they had the freedom to experiment and do things they'd always wanted to do. That, of course, led to their least successful albums (although they have some great songs on them, and I own them). Basically, money gives you the freedom to fail. Or it causes you to conform. The risk U2 took after Rattle & Hum, although initially unsuccessful lead to their current work which is just incredible. They never would have arrived at that by just conforming and continuing to produce what they always had before. That leads to stagnation and boredom from the audience. What I'm getting at here is that U2 is the longest running, most successful band ever. They're the biggest band the world has ever seen, and they stay there not by sticking to formula but by growth and change.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-4020270977796211462011-09-14T20:18:58.510-06:002011-09-14T20:18:58.510-06:00I thought you were okay with writing crap? In fact...I thought you were okay with writing crap? In fact I am sitting here looking at your post from the day before which says "crap sells. period." Does it matter if it's formulaic? Crap that is formulaic is still putting money in your pocket. Personally, my own writing goals are to be a chef but if I find a publisher it will be an Indie publisher, I'll have three little books on the shelf at BnN and noone will buy it because no one will be able to find it. But it will be good stuff (that sits in boxes in my basement). I'd rather have that though than be Stephanie Meyers. I'd rather write what I write than produce a Steven King novel. But I'm dumb that way and I don't get 44 (make that 45!) comments on my blog posts either! So we can see who has the populist touch! (and it's not me!)Danettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15043881305977386629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-62935187213375549882011-09-14T18:52:57.315-06:002011-09-14T18:52:57.315-06:00Dammit - of all the times to be late catching up w...Dammit - of all the times to be late catching up with a post. All I really have to add is a couple of things.<br /><br />1) I've kinda sorta been wondering if first time authors are like pop metal bands were in the 80's. When these acts first got signed to their record labels all their first albums sounding more or less the same, it wasn't until they had some success that they were afforded a taste of artistic freedom, some acts quickly became far less commercial, some got heavier, some more folksy... some kept churning out the same stuff. I don't want to judge any of the quality there, but note that they must have forced themselves into a mold to please the powers that be before they were able to make the music they really wanted to.<br /><br />2) Neal Stephenson, a pretty original writer, or at least one that messes with formula so much it feels original to me. His early disappointments getting published led him to (literally) tear apart some thriller novels that sold well and piece together a novel that hit all the beats he felt a novel has to hit in order to sell. <br /><br />It was a commercial turd and he decided to just write whatever the hell he wanted to, figuring that if he was going to fail, he might as well fail doing what he wanted. He stuck to his guns and found a way to make it happen. So, good for him.Rusty Carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09887821877521181811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-44506366795640770312011-09-14T12:21:42.390-06:002011-09-14T12:21:42.390-06:00I got sad a while back and then got over it after ...I got sad a while back and then got over it after I realized that my coming of age novel wasn't likely to be published by anybody but myself. The MC is 100% human and has no superpowers and is too young to be in a love triangle. <br /><br />Sure, other writers on my network have read it and still remark on the MC years later, but the truth is, it isn't what's selling right now, nor is it likely to be. <br /><br />Interesting posts with too many truths to ignore as the ranting of a crazed writer. :)J.L. Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05666634455836834179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-7374704951051895272011-09-14T05:51:35.409-06:002011-09-14T05:51:35.409-06:00So funny! I think that's why many are going th...So funny! I think that's why many are going the self-publishing route. Very sad that no one can write an original novel.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12160669603997465454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-36239636177422329492011-09-13T23:57:35.026-06:002011-09-13T23:57:35.026-06:00Oh my God, you basically just summed up every mode...Oh my God, you basically just summed up every modern teen novel in existence. Kudos.<br />Anyways, Matthew MacNish told me to come here. It's not that I wouldn't have wanted to, anyway (because I do love to hear opinions, especially if they're true {Or at least so untrue that you can argue it out, for God's sake}).<br />Good times.<br />~Z.F.Zade Forresthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02770794139849827369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-3154689266434483562011-09-13T20:05:16.812-06:002011-09-13T20:05:16.812-06:00I'm going to put it like this:
We don't ea...I'm going to put it like this:<br />We don't eat fast food. (It's very, very rare at any rate.) We just don't buy hamburgers at restaurants, because they're just not as good as what I make at home. The one exception to that is that -sometimes- we go to this place called SuperBurger. They make good burgers. Kind of like I make at home. They're close enough. We go there if we really want burgers, and we didn't prepare to do them ourselves. But SuperBurger is expensive, so, really, we don't go there more often than every few months.<br /><br />That being said, I'm pretty sure my book doesn't fit the formula. Actually, I'm sure of it. I don't consider it a YA book (or MG) even if it is about kids. It's a modern fantasy as far as I'm concerned, but it doesn't follow those conventions, either.<br /><br />And, just to say it, I pretty much agree with your perspective on the publishing industry.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-26326058890175790372011-09-13T19:14:38.892-06:002011-09-13T19:14:38.892-06:00I don't mind guidelines - they're usually ...I don't mind guidelines - they're usually there for a good reason - they work. But I can't say I'd like to write to a formula :)<br /><br />I popped over from Matt's - nice to meet you!Jemi Fraserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02214408467456320167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-30923470194021625432011-09-13T19:10:26.493-06:002011-09-13T19:10:26.493-06:00This is very discouraging. We have to do something...This is very discouraging. We have to do something before every one gives up on writing. Would you believe that I saw R.R.Martin in a dollar store? Dollar Tree to be exact. My poor cousins who love his work. They will be so sorry.MunirGhiasuddinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05232362559666320301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-20053955979615958842011-09-13T18:45:20.466-06:002011-09-13T18:45:20.466-06:00I'll take The Counter any day over McDonalds: ...I'll take The Counter any day over McDonalds: the "Build Your Own Burger" vs. the "Big Mac". That's where my analogy ends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-40152468857959881342011-09-13T17:50:01.800-06:002011-09-13T17:50:01.800-06:00I just want to make a few quick points:
First of ...I just want to make a few quick points:<br /><br />First of all, I MAY have had something to do with this "controversy." Not that I'm the only one who sends traffic to Mike, but I did mention both him and Sarah today, and I hate to see my friends arguing.<br /><br />On the other hand, I love to see people agree to disagree. Intelligent conversation is rare in the publishing blogosphere, and I think that differing opinions are part of human nature.<br /><br />I do want to clarify, I don't necessarily always agree with Mike, but I love his honesty because it always sparks some conversation. As to this post, I'd have to check the sources, but they could never be responded to in a single blog comment.<br /><br />I'll have to leave that to tomorrow. If I can remember.Matthew MacNishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03264738483763244969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-3048241472499492912011-09-13T17:34:04.146-06:002011-09-13T17:34:04.146-06:00As a YA, and as one who buys and reads YA (I own 5...As a YA, and as one who buys and reads YA (I own 507 books, most of which are YA), I must partially agree with you. There is a whole shelf on one of my bookcases that I have dedicated entirely to vampire books and the like (starting with <i>Twilight</i>) and half a shelf for dystopian (and you know, for being so popular you think people would know what it <i>is</i>). But, I also have books like <i>Redwall</i> and <i>Thirteen Reasons Why</i> and <i>Lessons from a Dead Girl</i> (I've been getting more into contemporary lately).<br /><br />Also, the formulas of today are not the formulas of tomorrow, so hence, <i>someone somewhere</i> is going to take a chance eventually. For example, in my ninth grade English class we are reading <i>Frankenstein</i>. Me? I'm loving it and the old language. But I'm a 'nerd', especially an English one. No one else understands the book, whether it be because of the setup, plot, characters, or the words (I've had to tell people who the narrator is who knows how many times) and so they don't like it. But <i>Frankenstein</i> and similar books are classics for a reason. People <i>used</i> to like them.<br /><br />PS. Finally read <i>I Am Number Four</i> and you were so right about that book. The love interest is flat and there is no conflict in their relationship and everyone accepts the fact that he's an alien way to easily. With Sam, I could sort of see that, but with Sarah? Plus half of his thoughts are clique and. there. are. typos. It's going straight to the used bookstore to be traded in.<br /><br />PPS. I admire your ability to inspire novel length comments.Brooke R. Bussehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17147444223968856153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-50601734163222495632011-09-13T17:21:09.322-06:002011-09-13T17:21:09.322-06:00Wow, quite the discussion. I think you struck a ne...Wow, quite the discussion. I think you struck a nerve.<br /><br />Forumlas. I mean, everything has a formula of some sort. I remember in band back in the day being told that music was just 12 notes and 8 rhythms (or was it 7 rhythms?). It was all built on that.<br /><br />Books are built on 26 letters. (In English.) These must be combined to form words, which must be combined in specific ways to form sentences. Grammar is a kind of formula in and of itself.<br /><br />And speaking of cheeseburgers... A cheeseburger is a formula, whether or not it's from McDonald's or a gourmet chef at come fancy restaurant. <br /><br />I don't like the idea of dumbing down to lowest common denominator just to find success, but that's another point entirely (art vs commerce, what's popular isn't always what's best, etc). Gee, I don't know what my point is. <br /><br />I just write what I like. I'll worry more when I've got something finished.Liz A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16531953467834426316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-88500889346121572762011-09-13T16:34:07.575-06:002011-09-13T16:34:07.575-06:00Great post Michael. I guess making cheeseburgers a...Great post Michael. I guess making cheeseburgers at home on the barbecue is like self-publishing? Intangible Heartshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05047040538015079182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-37755774804035137132011-09-13T16:21:40.286-06:002011-09-13T16:21:40.286-06:00Nothing's *that* private, with google. S'...Nothing's *that* private, with google. S'okay, I don't name names. And I do think there's a ton of talent and a lot of amazing books coming out, I'm not one of those "everything is crap" people. I just do what I think all aspiring authors do, which is hold up the bad ones and yell, "This? Seriously. This?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-60535985960264394252011-09-13T16:20:49.450-06:002011-09-13T16:20:49.450-06:00Michael...first off I'm from your dystopian ca...Michael...first off I'm from your dystopian campaign group! What's up:)<br /><br />As for the post, love it! Way to get things spicy around here.<br /><br />My opinion, because don't all us writers have one, is that I pretty much agree. <br /><br />I haven't actually read Sara's post nor do I know her personally, but when I think of YA I think of formula because it sells and it sells because that is what the youth like right now. Just like when SM's vamp book got big, vampires were the rave for a time because that's what sold. It changes as the demand does. <br />Right now the youth are loving a mainly female perspective (not that they all are...Beautiful Creatures pops in my mind as a male pov YA book) and in my opinion it's simply because more female youth as well as adults women seem to be reading these YA types of books. Not that boys don't read them(Michael you would know better than I about young boys reading preferences), but I think they veer more toward the sci-fi which has its own formula (I'm thinking Orson Scott Card and Terry Brooks because that is what my husband read when he was young). <br /><br />Also I think what is selling for the youth is the love angsty thing, so be it a love triangle or a huge obstacle getting in their way it sells. I don't know if that will ever change because being a female I love the angsty love stuff. I did when I was young too because, who are we kidding, hormones tend to rule a teenage girls life. So it sells. <br /><br />I think the odd twist, be it paranormal, dystopian or any other crazy, abnormal thing is added into the formula because who wants to read a story that mirrors their life completely. We need to relate at the same time we are yanked out of mundane-central. So yea, I think a formula for YA is needed so the YA's will want to read them. <br />Of course I don't think all YA's stick to this formula and that is why ebooks and self pubbing are so huge. But for the most part, they want it. <br /><br />I do think it is sad that race and religion still hinder the publishing world, but change breaks through all the time. I think it is the readers who can change it. If they demand it, then the formula will change.<br /><br />Your comparison between a Mcdonalds burger and the YA formula is spot on if you ask me.<br />I am a huge fan of the gormet burger and have grown to love them even more the older I get, but in my youth, there was nothing like a greesy double cheeseburger straight from Mc Dees:) And every once in awhile I want one today. <br />What can I say, the darn formula works and in a way nothing else does.<br /><br />Keep the cool posts coming Michael! Thrilled you are in my group:)Deanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17958057331230037880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-54960036582462908612011-09-13T15:01:57.568-06:002011-09-13T15:01:57.568-06:00Tamara: Get it off your chest girl!
That goes for...Tamara: Get it off your chest girl!<br /><br />That goes for anyone else too. Say what you want to say. Nothing is too inflammatory for my blog. It's not like industry professionals will ever read it. I'm too unimportant.Michael Offutt, Phantom Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10557969104886174930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-22837458376868824722011-09-13T14:46:29.143-06:002011-09-13T14:46:29.143-06:00I wish agents would just be honest about what they...I wish agents would just be honest about what they don't accept. It would save everyone (including themselves) a lot of time. <br /><br />Also...they base their decisions on what is selling and going outside of that box is usually a risk they don't want to take. If formula works for them, it's just going to encourage them to keep using it.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07922596724107742478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-48151454686383249782011-09-13T14:21:08.057-06:002011-09-13T14:21:08.057-06:00My recent YA book got some interest from agents, b...My recent YA book got some interest from agents, but ultimately they keep turning it down because it is not gimmicky enough. The recent one said specifically that it's the main character who isn't "special" enough to be a heroine. Now, this is a contemporary/realistic novel, and she's not saving the world, so I thought of her more as a protagonist than a "heroine", so that gave me a real WTF moment.<br /><br />Also, I've been hearing that my novel is "so close but not quite" and I have to wonder ... if it's so close, why don't they take me on and help me to make those fixes? You know, if they KNOW what's selling and how it's supposed to be, can't they Eliza Doolittle me into a superstar? Maybe they're just being kind, and I'm not so close. Hey, maybe I suck after all. I don't have an MFA or a New York address, so how would I know?<br /><br />I'm going to say something very inflammatory now. I've been reading a lot of popular YA. I don't love it. I don't go on my blog and go "SQUEE OMG OMG THE NEW YA BOOK SQUEE DRESSES! STUFF!" <br /><br />I think a lot of it is terrible. Should I be trying harder to write more like that? Or should I maybe try writing for a different market entirely? I think I may self-release my books as simply "books" and not YA.<br /><br />Maybe I'm just jaded and I've become such a harsh editor that I'll not like anything I read. Who knows. But seriously, have you read some recent contemporary YA? It's all "Boohoo, I have a tragedy in my past, I push people away from me and I'm such a loner. Oh look, a cute boy or two I'll pretend to not notice liking me. Oh nobody understands me and my parents are like SO weird. Once something interesting happened--flashback! Oh wait, it's the end of the book. I'm feeling much better! I think I can love!"<br /><br />Sorry I sound so bitter today. One of our kitties is sick, so getting angry about publishing is a good distraction. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-22881547998489694352011-09-13T13:23:45.144-06:002011-09-13T13:23:45.144-06:00Well, I love this post. I find it both accurate a...Well, I love this post. I find it both accurate and thought provoking.<br /><br />I tend to be in alignment of thought with Briane on this topic, but all of the feedback and comments are SO interesting. <br /><br />We are a freedom of choice society but as a society, we seem to be encouraging the most homogenized, mediocre version of everything - from literature to music, from news (really now mere sound bites) to what we eat (I loathe everything about McDonald's "food" except their french fries. Those simply cannot be deinied).<br /><br />I'm not going to say I've never read "chick lit". I have and do. It's perfect for a stress free, minimal thinking day at the beach. But I've also read all the works of Thomas Hardy. In life in general, people gravitate to that with which they are familiar - this includes books, which is why "formulas" work well. And by "work well", I mean sell well. And selling books is the objective of the publishing industry.<br /><br />Hopefully "formulas" do not entirely preclude the publishing possibilities and success of work that falls outside of those parameters. <br /><br />Thanks for this great, great post.<br /><br />Best,<br />PMTPM Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08103936210580390256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-87396009365288774892011-09-13T13:02:10.920-06:002011-09-13T13:02:10.920-06:00Sara used to be my agent. I highly doubt she's...Sara used to be my agent. I highly doubt she's saying people should write to a formula in the manner of, say, a Harlequin romance. She's probably saying that there exist certain expectations within each genre and that if those expectations aren't met, the book will be a more difficult sell. So, let's say you write a YA in a distant third person past from the perspective of a teen's dog...is that an impossible sell? Not if the writing rocks. But it will take more persuasion and EVEN BETTER writing to get it over the hurdles of publication. As if there aren't enough hurdles already.Anitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333494452915600562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-44375416485392136972011-09-13T12:44:07.116-06:002011-09-13T12:44:07.116-06:00Ooooh! Your response is making me smile. Seriously...Ooooh! Your response is making me smile. Seriously.K. M. Waltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167022736028223997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2495499100279472520.post-15868940979697953782011-09-13T12:35:23.598-06:002011-09-13T12:35:23.598-06:00K.M. Perhaps your post here restores my faith in p...K.M. Perhaps your post here restores my faith in publishing? Congratulations on your success.Michael Offutt, Phantom Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10557969104886174930noreply@blogger.com